Warning! This entire post is a major set of spoilers for the series. If you haven’t seen it, don’t go there!
All the spoiler comments about Jiltosh and Mungen on this post just made me realize something, and it was getting too long to put in a mere comment. I did manage to shorten it some.
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Despite the fact that she wasn’t mentioned as such, I always thought that Setsuna was a Galactic Hero too, because of her extraordinary speed and other minor powers. But if that’s right, the count of heroes would be off. So I went back and re-watched the next-to-the last episode, where a lot of the explanation is. Setsuna is Mugen’s younger sister, and she is one of the first generation of Tenmo people. I’d remembered both of those, but she’d definitely not a hero, which is why Jiltosh was able to handle her so easily.
So what was Setsuna, and why did she have powers extraordinary enough that she thought she could stop Jiltosh? Bear in mind that both he and the surviving Cosmos hero (Myouken) appear to have ended up as ruler-gods of their respective civilizations. Or at the least, troubleshooters with literally unrestricted authority to deal with any threats to peace (including destroying most of a galaxy if that’s what it takes).
So what was Setsuna, to take on that level of being? Well, she was obviously a member of whatever race Jiltosh, Asougi, and Mugen were drawn from. (Or at least the same as her brother Mugen — although most of the alien races are remarkably humanoid in general–and as becomes obvious, can interbreed with humans!) She was obviously as immortal or long-lived as the heroes. While the character bio on the DVD doesn’t say anything about it, my best guess is that she had a lesser form of the ‘Hero Enhancement,’ although not even she realized how much lesser until she tried to stop Jiltosh. It’s also possible that she’d forgotten just how outclassed she was after ten thousand years on Earth. The bio does say that her entire clan settled on Earth to become the guardians of Shingu and found the Tenmo people by having families with the natives. Heh. Talk about improving the gene pool: the modern human race would then be hybrids between Cro-Magnons and aliens!
So was memory loss or misjudgment the actual reason behind her actions? No, not really. The real reason is because the director thought it would be more dramatic that way — and it was. As far as “going stupid” in a show to make it happen the way someone wants it to, this one is relatively minor and easily forgivable.
Rats; I can’t respond to you because there’s no spoiler tag in your comments. I’ll have to think about it and post on my own site under a spoiler tag. But what I will say is that I disagree with you nearly completely about it all.
No spoiler tags? Huh?
[spoiler]Well, I continued to read the bios, and they seem to take the approach that Jiltosh and Myouken were troubleshooters employed by their respective empires. My point stands: troubleshooters with unlimited authority. And almost unlimited power. [/spoiler]
Edit: I haven’t figured out how to hack the template to put a button in the options. Type it manually; use brackets, angle or straight, not parentheses.
OK, I’ll try it:
[spoiler]You’re making a false assumption. Setsuna didn’t think she was going to succeed, except by a fluke. But it was a situation where she felt she had to try anyway, even though she had only a faint chance of success.
Also, Jiltosh and Asougi are not from the same race; there is no single race from which the Galactic Federation heros derive.
Equally, you are mistaken in assuming that the aliens are all humanoid in form. Actually, most of the ones we see are shapeshifters. Jiltosh, of course, changes form near the end. Jiltosh uses his power to change Weinul. Mr. So stands in for Ito. Setsuna is shown in the end to have changed herself, too, though not as much as some of the others. It’s not illusion; the change is quite real, and while aliens are in human form, they eat and sleep and I think can reproduce just as humans do.
There is no “hero enhancement”. The Heros are the high end of a curve, different in degree but not in kind from others. A lot of people in the show have extraordinary powers at least to some degree. Isozaki, for instance, is quite powerful. The Heros are simply those who are drastically more powerful than anyone else.
And Setsuna hadn’t forgotten anything. She knew how powerful Jiltosh was. But Setsuna is motivated by mother-love. After all this time, and considering the relatively small breeding population, all the natives of Tenmo probably were her descendants. But it’s more general; she became the Guardian of Earth (Jiltosh told us) and actually sees all the people of the planet as her kids. She can’t stand by and watch disaster happen to them; she is emotionally compelled to try to protect them even if it’s hopeless.[/spoiler]
I have no idea why the first paragraph is boldface. I didn’t do that.
There’s weird formatting that happens sometimes when you combine certain tags, and WP tends to “interpret” things you didn’t mean.
Now, on your points…
Regarding race, I did say, “or at least her brother Mugen,” but yes, they’re probably different races. I think we see at least five or six different ones in the series. Oddly, almost all of them seem to have shape shifting ability, or really good illusions. I’ll also note that there don’t seem to be any problems with atmospheric compatibility, body chemistry, or little things like amino acids.
The rest of it…. I don’t believe that the Heroes are the high end of the curve; it isn’t supported by anything I saw. They aren’t on a bell curve, or even a normal power curve. Instead, they appear to be “on a plateau” completely different from almost all the rest. This implies strongly that they weren’t natural in origin, they were created. And whatever the creation process was, it obviously carried grave risks or was highly difficult, since each side created only a handful during the war and don’t appear to have created any since.
Note that Myouken says, when speaking of Mugen, that he “surpassed the limits of his powers.” There’s two possibilities; first, that what Myouken means is “he surpassed all previously known benchmarks for power by a being of his race.” And what, that’s never, ever happened again in 10,000 years? Nor were any steps ever required to keep it from happening again by anyone else? I don’t buy it. One reason is that it would be like (relatively speaking) me suddenly developing telekinetic powers, but nobody else in a hundred generations after me does. Another reason is that such a setup (that the beings of one race could spontaneously develop galaxy-destroying powers when under extreme duress) would complicate the story unnecessarily. The implications would require a lot of, to borrow a phrase from you, “violence to the (back) story.”
The second possibility regarding the limits is that it’s a slight mistranslation: not “limits of his powers” but “limits ON his powers.” That one reason there are so few heroes is that they were considered potentially dangerous to their creators. In fact, it would appear that the Cosmos Alliance deliberately created weaker Heroes (but more of them) in order to avoid this risk, whereas the Galactic Federation went for fewer and more powerful types — while compensating with “limits” on them. Therefore, the Cosmos Heroes mostly got killed by their Federation counterparts, but it was a Federation Hero that lost control when Mugen’s power limits broke down in combat.
Once it is concluded that Heroes are created, not born, a lesser form (lets dub them “Champions” for the sake of easy reference) then becomes a possibility; whatever traits that made Mugen a viable candidate for Hero was also made Setsuna capable of becoming a Champion. Aside from her speed, most of her powers appear to be implied, but I remind you that when she and Asougi repulsed the attack on the mountain village, she literally played with the attackers. (“Batter up!”) Perhaps she didn’t really believe she could beat Jiltosh, but I note that she did not attack him from surprise, which would be the tactically sound thing to do if she knew she was badly outclassed. Perhaps that can be put down to cultural or personal traits, but they’d have to be pretty strong.
Also,
Yes, but I think you’re confusing part of the conversation he had with Ms. Isozaki (sp?) with his remarks to Setsuna. He notes that she has also come to love Earth… but you don’t see her trying to attack the Magistrate, alien or no. After all, she’s not a Champion. (And is about 10,000 years younger, but let’s not quibble over the fine details!)
(Unrelated aside: Note the classic trope of “mortal given the power of the gods and being driven insane thereby” is implicitly assumed by Mugen’s breakdown and exile.)
I’m going to have to leave it at that; it’s late and I need to get to bed.
[spoiler]The only problem with your idea that the power is given to people instead of being inborn is that a lot of people in Tenmo have it. Yamamoto-sensei, in particular, is very strong. A lot of the Protectors have it, too. In the brief flashes we see of the running battle between the Protectors and the Cosmos Alliance guerrilla team, many of the Protectors use the power.
It appears to be genetic. In the case of the people of Tenmo, the Shrine Descendence ritual appears to awaken the power, but that isn’t really what you’re suggesting. And it’s also quite widespread; among the Protectors there are dozens of people who can do it.
Why not everyone? I think it’s because the people of Tenmo are hybrids, and the prevalence of the gene has fallen as a result of outbreeding with normal humans. The interesting question would be how common it was among the people in Asougi’s village — but we never see that to be sure.
Perhaps there is some kind of training or ceremony involved, but it appears that the fundamental capability is born, not made. Any ceremony amounts to training, not to creation.
As to the “baseball as a martial art” scene (I like Don’s way of describing that) it’s true that Asougi and Setsuna were playing with those attack-bots. But if you watch closely, the baseballs that Asougi is serving up to Setsuna are glowing with his power — and the only attackbot we see destroyed, he does it. They’re playing around in part just because they’re getting annoyed with the constant probings, but also because the two of them are not in any danger. But I’m not so sure that Setsuna herself could really handle them. It’s rather that she’s so fast that they couldn’t possibly catch her. It’s really Asougi who takes care of them.
By the way, another reason for doing what they were doing was to disguise Asougi’s power. Presumably there’s telemetry from the attackbots going back to the Cosmos Alliance, and if Asougi went Hero on them, the CA would know it — and that would be bad. So they’re playing around in part to disguise just how they win, so as to minimize the amount of information that the CA gains from this reconnaisance in force.
Think about what it must be like for Setsuna and Asougi to have lived on Earth for thousands of years. How do you stay committed to the job? It’s got to be pretty important to you. Setsuna has watched generation after generation of her descendants be born, grow up, grow old, and die; how does she stay committed and not become cold and angry, or depressed, or simply give it all up?
That’s why her mother-love is so strong; it’s what she’s had to develop in order to keep doing what she is doing. She sees generation after generation of young people (like Nayuta) make the same stupid social mistakes — and there’s a degree to which she finds that funny, because the only other way to react to it would be to become bitter and bitchy. But she also has to love each generation, love them deeply and truly — because it’s the only way she can keep going.
So when the crisis comes, that same love that’s kept her going for thousands of years then compels her to make a forlorn attempt to save them. It isn’t possible for her to do anything else.
Isozaki isn’t in the same kind of position. We don’t know for sure just how long she’s been there, but at most it’s only been a few years. She’s beginning to feel commitment to her kids, but nothing like as much.
Moreover, when the crisis comes, Setsuna knows exactly what’s going on and why. Isozaki is very confused. Determined effort to interfere isn’t really in character for Isozaki at that moment — and it has nothing to do with the relative power levels of Setsuna and Isozaki.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Ah. So why is it that Asougi himself doesn’t interfere?
My answer is that he does interfere — but not in the same way. He doesn’t try to stop Jiltosh; instead he goes to the school to offer help to the kids, so that they have their best chance of retrieving the situation. But I would claim that what Asougi does is motivated by the same commitment and love that motivated Setsuna. It just manifested in a different way.[/spoiler]
Hmm.
In short, the reason Nayuta is so capable with the Shingu is that she’s probably Aosugi’s real granddaughter, which in turn means that Asougi is from the same race as Setsuna, or also able to crossbreed with humans.
I don’t deny your motivations for Setsuna. My main rationale stands however; the Heros may be more capable naturally, but their ability level has to be artificial, as no others seem to have appeared in the intervening 10,000 years. In short, part of the armistice between the Cosmos and Federation forces must preclude creation of further Heroes. Otherwise, it would have been necessary to do something to the race from which Setsuna and Mugen originated, in order to prevent more overpowered dangers from appearing.
Huh. Like maybe have them outbreed with a lesser race to avoid concentrating their power further? Possible support for your position. However, I note that it’s only Setsuna’s clan, not her entire race that settles on Earth, and it’s portrayed as a voluntary action, not “you will move here and breed with the locals instead of each other, lest you create another Mugen.”
(Tangentially, the Momoe-Asougi connection means that a head-fake from earlier in the series was actually true. About the time that the old film was discovered, the obvious conclusion was that either the young man in that film was Muryou himself or Asougi, as Muryou’s “grandfather” and predecessor. I went for the “obvious” conclusion that it was Asougi at the time. Later I thought differently, but the bio and Muryou’s story pretty much seals that it was Asougi after all.)
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[spoiler]I counted four distinct levels of power in Shingu: normal human, Protector, Chosen, Hero (from least to most.) The Zaigleans are at human level; they have better technology than Earth does, but no special abilities other than what their tech provides. Isozaki, and presumably most of the Federation diplomats in Tenmo, are at the Protector level; they generate personal force bubbles, throw robots around, and fiddle with aliens’ translators from afar. Setsuna is at the Chosen level; in fact, Shun has the same power of superspeed that she does, and at one point pulls her favorite trick of quietly appearing next to somebody. And then there are Jiltosh, Asougi, Muryou, and Myouken, the confirmed Heroes.
That raises the question, why was it important that Kyoichi, as a Chosen, not fight the Alliance’s reconnaissance force? Presumably, it’s the same reason as Setsuna’s and Asougi’s for fighting with baseballs: Kyoichi would have revealed too much if he’d used his power against them.
“To drag in a related point, it’s said in the bios on the last DVD that Asougi is aged because he fell in love with Momoe, and chose to be with her–thus he aged alongside her.” But in the scene where Momoe gives Hajime the “incantation” revealing Tenmo’s secret history, she also becomes younger, returning to her appearance as of 1970 — which is also very like Setsuna’s appearance after Jiltosh knocks her unconscious. So Momoe’s age is also a deliberate choice on her part. If Asougi chose to age to follow her, why did she make that choice? Perhaps so she could live with her children and grandchildren publicly, without raising suspicion?
On the question “are Heroes born or made?” — I don’t recall whether the Tenmo clans gave their children the “incantation” as part of the Shrine Descension rite, or if those were two different affairs. If they’re the same rite, the fact that Hajime only became sensitive to the Shingu after receiving the “incantation”, and gained no powers beyond that, proves that access to the power is linked to descent from a Hero. If they’re different, well, it’s possible that any human who participated in a Shrine Descension rite could use the power actively. But, whether good genes are necessary or just helpful, connecting with an esoteric power source is also required. Otherwise, Nayuta’s wish that the Shrine Descencion rite [i]not[/i] be performed in future doesn’t make much sense.
Incidentally, I’m wondering if the Tenmo families, or the Federation, have anticipated Earth’s probable reaction to the Shingu’s disclosure — as opposed to the disclosure of the Federation’s existence. It was Hachiyou, not the elders or the diplomats, who explained to the public just why the starships came to Tenmo of all places. I would expect a great pack of Terran scientists, of every imaginable discipline, would rush into Tenmo the day after the starships left, eager to find out absolutely [i]everything[/i] about this previously unheard of phenomenon, the Shingu, and to think up applications for it. In light of just how dangerous these powers can be, I doubt that the Federation would want scientists studying the Shingu, but trying to stop them would give Ito and Jiltosh ulcers …[/spoiler]